I'll battle anyone cuz they suck.

Sacha Jenkins, Egotrip co-founder, Mass Appeal editor, and co-creator of VH1's finest moment, The (white) Rapper Show, loves laughing at hip hop's demise. Hallelujah holla black.
By Robert Sumner

Somewhere amid the rubble of dwindling record sales, bloated fashion gimmicks, tabloid-slash-police blotter style news coverage, movie vehicles, beer commercial soundtracks and the occasional leaked mp3, the soul of hip hop exists. Wading through the muck of this much ballyhooed "death" of hip hop in recent years has been a task not many listeners have been willing to undertake when the rewards are usually dragged and dropped into the recycle bin after a week. Is there anything about this culture that resonates beyond the occasional signature dance move? Taking an approach that may sting to some, the brilliant "rainbow of motherfuckers" at Egotrip have put together a show that aims a magic bullet at rap's cynical audience. While Egotrip's The (white) Rapper Show may seem to exploit the idea that rap's supposed core audience (read: crackers) will never truly belong to the music they love to shout inside of their mother's SUV, this often painfully funny reality TV satire is laced with the idea that hip hop knowledge is lacking among listeners, and they.must.learn.

Behind the barrel of this basic-cable gat is the trippers' head honcho, Sacha Jenkins. Beginning as a graffiti writer during hip hop's developmental stages, self-publishing a number of 'zines and moving onto create some of the most influential publications in rap-coverage, Jenkins has taken the whole 'embodiment of hip hop culture' steez to a new level on the 'video hits one' network. Beginning with "TV's Illest Minority Moments," and the "Race-o-rama" series, Egotrip's forays into television have been poignant, hilarious and most of all, pregnant with the culture that made rap so interesting before corporate forces swooped in for a piece. The (white) Rapper Show continued that tradition with a run of episodes that much less found the next Eminem than gave us all the opportunity to experience rap as novices should. Philaflava.com caught up with Sacha before the show's season finale, where he reveals the duality of how fucked up rap culture currently is, while at the same time how brilliant it can and should be. It was less of a Q and A per say than a lecture peppered with f-words.

Philaflava.com: Describe some of the flack that you've caught from white people regarding The (white) Rapper Show:

Sacha Jenkins: There's a lot of white on white hate in hip hop. I have talked to all the kids who were on the show and asked them how their lives have changed and they've said 'Yo it's been nothing but love.' But there has got to be hate, and they have all unanimously said that they have received FedEx packages of verbal hate, or just hate in general from other white MCs, whether it's online or in general. White people in hip hop need to relax. Hip hop is for everyone now. Just because you are the white dude in the crew doesn't mean you're special anymore, everyone raps, so don't be so uptight. Show your fellow white people some love on the mic. But that's what's going to make season two, if there is a season two, so incredible because so many white MCs are like, 'Yo all the kids on your show are garbage I'll smoke 'em.'

PF: What made these guys stand out? Just the fact that they are crazy personalities or was it their skills on the mic?

SJ: Well it's television so you need people who have strong personalities. But say what you want about G-Child, I mean sure, she loves Vanilla Ice and that's her point of reference, but she's passionate about what it is that she does, and she's good at what she does. Even if people think that she's wack, she's not Rich Boy, she's not necessarily today's idea of what an MC is supposed to be. But it's hip hop and your supposed to be whatever you want to be and I feel like regardless of whether people feel she has the illest skills or not, people connect with her passion and conviction. And I think that's what all good television is about: passion and conviction.

PF: Did anything about the show make VH1 nervous?

SJ: I think that there were some misgivings internally because it's a big company and not everyone internally knows the inter-dynamic of what is going into the show. There were white people who worked there who were like, 'What the hell is this, the white rapper show?' and there were certainly black people who were like 'What the hell is this, the white rapper show, what kind of shit is this?' At least on VH1's end the people who were working closely with us to produce the show totally understood what it was that we were doing, but there was just a lot of misinformation. And I think that now that people see the show for what it's worth, I think that people respect it and understand it. But going into it, it's called The (white) Rapper Show, it's Egotrip, we have a reputation for looking at race that's very unique to us, for some people, it's not as open.

There are people who work in porn who talk about double penetrations like it's a Reese's peanut butter cup, it's an everyday thing. I'm not even saying that they don't have an emotional connection to double penetrations. But to me and the guys at Egotrip, the way we talk about race, to a lot of people it's very uncomfortable and people aren't used to it and we forget about that sometimes. Even in a title like The (white) Rapper Show, we go into it knowing that it's a provocative title, but we fail to realize that on a mass scale, it's extremely provocative, and I think because of the way we talk amongst ourselves its like we are desensitized to stuff but we want everyone to feel good about themselves, especially at night.

PF: How has your very early upbringing in Silver Spring, Maryland influenced your work?

SJ: What has actually influenced me when it comes to Silver Spring is like, when I was living where I lived, it was like really diverse, there were white people there, there were black people there; it was kind of a mixed community. And my family is very diverse, I've got cousins that are half-Chinese, I've got white people, Jewish people, my grandfather was French, my father's father was black but he looked white. So for me, I was always in a very diverse sort of world. But then I moved to Queens, everything was like, all right, those people are Greek, those people are Italian, those people are black, those people are Puerto Rican. When I lived in Maryland it was never about like, 'What are you.' When I moved to New York, everything is like, 'Your this, your black, your supposed to do this, your not supposed to do this,' and for me it was a very strange experience.

Everything in New York was so separate and segregated, it was weird. So for me, the reason why I really connected with things like graffiti or skateboarding or whatever, was because it was diverse, when you are a graffiti writer you know rich kids from the upper west side and poor kids form the lower east side and your typically going out of your neighborhood at a time when there wasn't the internet. Back then, in the 80's, kids played baseball on their block and maybe if they were on a team they would go to other neighborhoods, but kids didn't typically leave their neighborhoods. There was no communication, so being into the shit I was into as a kid--graffiti, punk rock, hip hop skating--definitely satisfied my desire to know different kinds of people. And that's sort of what put Egotrip in a really unique position to comment on race across the board. There are five of us, one guy is Chinese, one guy is black and Vietnamese, one guy is Mexican, one guy is black, Greek and Ecuadorian; so we represent a whole rainbow of mother fuckers. It was the fact that I was exposed to so many different kinds of people that I, and all of us at Egotrip, it puts us into this unique sort of position to comment on some of the racial stuff. You watch BET and it's always like a late night black comedian who is like, 'You you know the thing about white people is, they can't dance,' but do you know white people?

That's why someone like Dave Chapelle is so effective, I mean he had his partner, who was a white dude, but together, they made shit that actually struck a chord because it was no longer just saying things about white people, it was actually connecting with them. And bringing that to the white rapper show, we had a pretty broad range of MCs that I think is representative of, not every kind of white rapper out there, but a pretty broad range. And I think it struck a chord with so many people because there will be the people on this show that you will like, but then as a white person, there will be people on the show who you will be like, 'I'm white and this person embarrasses me. I'm embarrassed to be white. This is not a good look for white people.' I hear that all the time. Some people have gotten really pissed off, like online they will be like, 'Yo, this shit is racist.' I find it interesting that white people really want to get pissed off about one fucking television show. Do you know how many fucking television shows have made black people look like fucking bloodthirsty gorillas over the last fucking fifty years?

For me it's an interesting exercise to see how white people react. If you think about all of the shit they had to go through, they had to prove themselves. Anyone would have killed to have the opportunity to do a song with Just Blaze. We created opportunities for people. How many people around the country say, 'hallelujah holla back'? Yeah, there's silly shit on the show, but there are also situations were white people really have to prove themselves. Maybe there is something racist about being upset about the white rapper show?

PF: Do you think BET has plans on ripping off the white rapper show?

SJ: I wish they would. I would love for BET to be good. I mean, I'm black; maybe BET could reach out to Egotrip. Maybe Egotrip could do some good programming for them, but I don't know. But no one has called me from BET. Instead I have to work with the white man at VH1, which is no problem.

PF: There have been a lot of rap legends on VH1 recently, Ice-T has a show, Flavor Flav has had several shows, you guys have Serch, is VH1 where hip hop goes to die?

SJ: I don't think VH1 is the place where hip hop goes to die. But sadly, the reason why I fucking hate hip hop and why it sucks pelican balls is: why is it that the fucking Rolling Stones--those motherfuckers old enough to be your grandfathers--they're fucking rich and can continue to tour? I'm not saying that the Rolling Stones are going to have some shit hotter than Fallout Boy, but they can still record and they can still make a nice living for themselves. OK, Ice T is on VH1. Is he dying or is he actually living? Is he actually able to have an impact on the culture or at least catch a check? Should we be mad at VH1 because they're actually giving people who laid the foundation for a lot of shit a fucking check when so-called black networks won't give them a fucking shot while focusing on the new hot shit? You'll listen to radio stations and they'll be like Notorious BIG, old school, 1994. How is '94 old school? So what is Chuck Berry; is that like fuckin' the Aztecs? How is that Old school?

With hip hop, everything is so disposable. Everything is about the new latest shit. When I was a kid I was a part of that. I wanted to have the new, latest sneakers, I wanted to have all the new latest shit, but that was at a time when the culture was being pioneered. Now that the shit is a fucking industry, it's an industry worth billions of dollars, Ice T, go get a check, no one else is going to give you a fucking check, everyone else is gonna be like, 'You are at VH1, where rappers go to die.' But to me, they are paying respect to people who have talent. Grandmaster Caz was on the white rapper show. Do any of these motherfuckers know who Grandmaster Caz is? Maybe not, but that guy had so much personality and so much charisma and was so great on the show because he comes from an era where rappers actually had to fucking rap and earn the respect of fans.

These fucking rappers, the days of them getting big advances and doing music videos and having bitches in their videos, and shit like that, and like getting fat checks, they're over. Now they're going to have to fucking rap. I challenge these fucking rappers to rap. They don't know how to fucking perform and they suck. I say all the time, lyrically they're garbage, I'll battle any MC right now. Line for line, lets sit down and write raps. I'll battle anyone because they suck. They are not writers.

The first writer I ever wanted to be was a graffiti writer. And then I published my own 'zine, which was a graffiti 'zine, and then I started writing for magazines. But as a writer, who was I inspired by? I was inspired by fucking Big Daddy Kane. That dude is a fucking amazing writer and he was writing shit when he was 19 that was fucking amazing. These motherfuckers can't write for shit. I'm not inspired by these motherfuckers. Ghostface Killah, to me? Amazing. Beyond rapper? Just a fucking amazing writer. Every time I listen to one of his songs, I literally pick up on something I didn't pick up on before. Multi-layered shit. That's what I'm fucking talking about. All this other shit? I'll throw some 'D's on that bitch,' I actually like that shit, don't get me wrong there's plenty of shit that's cool. But getting back to VH1 being the place where hip hop goes to die, it's like, is hip hop alive? Mainstream hip hop? Or is it disco?

PF: So should every rapper be asked whether or not hip hop is dead?

SJ: Hip hop isn't dead. I mean, look. I've caught a check from hip hop for the last fuckin' 14 years so it's kind of disrespectful for me to really believe my heart of hearts that hip hop is dead. For me hip hop, as corny as it sounds, is a spiritual thing. But it's something that I've been able to understand based on my experiences with punk rock, skateboarding, graffiti; there's something very special about the communal energy or the spirit of hip hop. There's something very precious there and important and powerful and that energy inspired me to do all the shit that I do today. So is that energy in the hearts of these MCs out now? I believe that, for sure. Who am I really to judge them and who am I to really say that hip hop is dead, but I feel like these people are as educated as they should be. And I feel like that has been our mission at Egotrip. We try to entertain people but we also want to educate people. We want people to understand. You can throw some D's on that bitch, but you should also know fuckin' "Run's House" by Run DMC. How do you not know that?

It's not television. Television is a business. It's not in the interest in business to educate people. It would be in the interest of business to educate people if all of these CDs that weren't in the stores were in the stores. The whole landscape of all of this has changed. At Egotrip we are lucky to be in the position to drop some science and educate people and entertain people. I am also the editor at Mass Appeal and I love being a part of Mass Appeal because it reminds me of the old days when we were publishing Egotrip. It's an independent magazine and the people there are young and are really inspired by art and inspired by the music that is their soundtrack right now. The hip hop that is popping right now may not be my soundtrack, but I am not gonna discount the fact that it's another generations' soundtrack and they're equally inspired by that. Its easy for Nas or dudes in their mid-thirties to say that hip hop is dead, the hip hop that we knew, that we grew up on is no longer here. I might be able to say that from my experience that I am a more rounded, educated hip hop individual. I think it's safe for me to say that. I am more educated on the culture, I am more educated on the history and I wish more people of this generation would be, but if they are having fun with their shit, who am I to ask them if hip hop is dead, it obviously isn't. I might not be a huge Young Jeezy fan, but does he always have to answer whether or not hip hop is dead? He's cashing checks. He's able to support himself. He's able to travel the world. It seems like hip hop is alive in well in his life.

PF: What do you think of Hip hop journalism nowadays? Is it too concerned with beef, rumor-mongering, being snarky and rap-sheets?

SJ: It's different because now you have the internet. So it's like, now everyone has an opinion and we know that a big part of hip hop is talking shit and drama and all this other stuff. I come from an era where I grew up a mile away from Queens bridge and I remember when MC Shan and the Juice Crew and BDP had beef, and BDP was performing at United Skates of America in Queens and there was a shootout. I remember when hip hop transitioned from dudes battling each other and maybe someone got punched in the face to the point where in the late 80's people started to shoot each other all this crazy shit started to happen. I think at that point, the early quote-unquote hip hop journalism was developing and started to have writers who understood the culture.

By the early nineties we finally had a group of people who were by the culture of the culture writing about shit. I had published my own magazines at that point and I wasn't trained. But once I started writing for bigger magazines, I was able to learn from really talented writers and editors. My perspective broadened and my talent was nurtured. Now you have a whole generation of kids who have no formal training, I didn't have formal training, but now, that you have so many different voices from all over the place. With reporting, your asking questions and your doing research, but with the internet, you can't trust anything. You don't know who's doing what. You don't know how credible these sources are. On one level, it's entertaining and it's cool that so many people have a voice. I feel lucky, when I published my first 'zine, one of the early graffiti 'zines in the late '80s, there weren't even three other 'zines in the world in existence. If I wanted to do the something like that now, who would give a fuck? There are so many different voices and so many different kids wanting to have something to say, I think that's great and that's incredible, but whose opinion can you trust? You read record reviews in Vibe or the Source and after you got familiar with the writing style or the opinion of the writer, you'd be able to figure out, 'OK, I don't really like his taste, so I am not really going to fuck with everything he has to say, but he does make some solid points.' It would help to inform your decision in terms of making a purchase. But now, you get everything for free anyway. Now it's like, 'Oh "Throw some D's on it," I've never heard that, you can find it and listen to it instantly and share your opinion instantly with god knows how many people. There's a danger in some of the shit that's being written, but people have to be wise enough to understand that if it's on the net, you have to take it with a grain of salt.

PF: Going completely off-topic here, what do you think is more racist: the NBA banning complaining to refs or the NFL banning entertaining celebrations?

SJ: OK complaining to refs. It's sports, so the refs have to have a certain amount of authority. The refs are supposed to have respect and you don't want that undermined, so to a certain extent I can understand that. Dancing in the endzone, it's a little different in that black people or people of African decent are culturally different from white people. And maybe, culturally for African Americans, doing something like that is more a part of their culture, as opposed to white American culture or the culture that has established football. So there is a football culture and the football culture is saying, 'This is football culture and you can't do that.' That's one way to look at it. The people who are responsible for dictating football culture are largely white and they don't want that. So is it racist or is it just corporate bullshit? Probably somewhere in between. Black people fucking like to dance, that's old news. I really don't see the big deal. If a fucking white dude fucking caught a touchdown and he wanted to do the fucking wop, who gives a shit. It's sports, but it's also entertainment, that's why I can understand, the refs, OK, you got to respect the refs, don't get in the refs grill. If motherfuckers want to dance? For two seconds? I can blame the white man for that.

PF: You guys have made a ton of lists in your lifetime. Can you give me a top five list of top five list topics?

SJ: I don't know. That's a hard question. We busted our ass on those lists for a long time. I'm not saying that I never want to see a list again, but I really couldn't come up with something clever for that one.