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PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2012 3:17 pm 
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OMG CONSERVATIVELY BIASED SOURCE :ohsh: :ff: :ohsh: :stick: :ohsh:

http://cnsnews.com/news/article/new-dis ... ini-horses

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New Disability Regs Limit Slope of Mini Golf Holes, Require Businesses to Admit Mini Horses as Guide Animals

Although the Justice Department has extended the deadline for Americaג€™s hotels to comply with regulations regarding handicap access to swimming pools, new Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA) guidelines are already being applied at miniature golf courses, driving ranges, amusement parks, shooting ranges and saunas.

Among the provisions in the "Revised ADA Standards for Accessible Design," which went into effect on March 15, is one requiring businesses to allow miniature horses on their premises as guide animals for the disabled. Another limits the height of slopes on miniature golf holes.

ג€œThe new standards, for the first time, include requirements for judicial facilities, detention and correctional facilities, and recreational facilities,ג€ Assistant Attorney General Thomas E. Perez said during a conference in Baltimore on June 7.

ג€œWe expect the implementation of these accessibility standards to open up doors for full participation in both the responsibilities, such as jury duty, and the benefits, such as playing at city parks, of civic life for people with disabilities,ג€ he said.

The 2010 ADA standards for Accessible Design require that at least 50 percent of golf holes on miniature golf courses be ג€œaccessibleג€ ג€“ with a ground space that is ג€œ48 inches minimum by 60 inches minimum with slopes not steeper than 1:48 at the start of play.ג€

Other regulations include:

Saunas ג€“ provision of accessible turning space and an accessible bench.

Shooting facilities ג€“ provision of accessible turning space ג€œfor each different type of firing position.ג€

Golf courses ג€“ ג€œan accessible route to connect all accessible elements within the boundary.ג€ An accessible route must also ג€œconnect golf car rental areas, bag drop areas, teeing grounds, putting greens, and weather shelters.ג€

Gyms ג€“ at least one of each type of exercise machine must be positioned for use by a person in a wheelchair.

Amusement parks ג€“ any new or altered ride must provide at least one seat for a person in a wheelchair

A section of the guidelines regulating commercial facilities states that, ג€œa public accommodation shall make reasonable modifications in policies, practices, or procedures to permit the use of a miniature horse by an individual with a disability if the miniature horse has been individually trained to do work or perform tasks for the benefit of the individual with a disability.ג€

A public accommodation is defined as ג€œa private entity that owns, leases (or leases to), or operates a place of public accommodation.ג€

ג€œMiniature horses were suggested by some commenters as viable alternatives to dogs for individuals with allergies, or for those whose religious beliefs preclude the use of dogs,ג€ the rules state. Also mentioned as a reason to include the animals is the longer life span of miniature horses ג€“ providing approximately 25 years of service as opposed to seven years for dogs.


ג€œSome individuals with disabilities have traveled by train and have flown commercially with their miniature horses,ג€ the Justice Department notes.

ג€œSimilar to dogs, miniature horses can be trained through behavioral reinforcement to be ג€˜housebroken,ג€™ג€ it adds.

However, ג€œPonies and full-size horses are not covered.ג€

A business owner can deny admission to a miniature horse that is not housebroken, whose handler does not have sufficient control of the animal, or if the horseג€™s presence compromises ג€œlegitimate safety requirements.ג€

The miniature horse addition has come under the scrutiny of at least one member of Congress, Rep. Jason Chaffetz (R-Utah), who offered an amendment that passed the House, banning funding to implement the provision. Chaffetz penned an editorial last month in opposition to the rule entitled, ג€œHorses in the Dining Room?ג€

Last month the Justice Department extended the deadline for the rule requiring permanent wheelchair access to recreational pools. Citing ג€œsignificant concerns and misunderstandings among a substantial number of pool owners and operators,ג€ the department issued a notice in the Federal Register extending compliance from March 15 to May 21 this year. The date has now been pushed back further, to January 31, 2013.

The regulation requires large pools ג€“ those with over 300 linear feet of pool wall ג€“ to have two accessible means of entry, and smaller pools to have one.

For existing pools, owners making structural alterations are obliged to remove architectural barriers ג€œto the extent such compliance is readily achievable.ג€

ג€œAs I consider the departmentג€™s accomplishments to date, and our plans for the future, I continue to take my inspiration from people with disabilities and their families,ג€ Perez said in Baltimore.

ג€œThese individuals express the harm of segregation and the value of integration more eloquently than any lawyerג€™s brief ever could. They are the heroes of this civil rights movement.ג€

A person with a disability is defined by the ADA as, ג€œa person who has a physical or mental impairment that substantially limits one or more major life activities, a person who has a history or record of such an impairment, or a person who is perceived by others as having such an impairment.ג€


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2012 3:23 pm 
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I guaran-fucking-tee that PopeyeLoveJonesForMen or ric will put forth what they genuinely believe to be a cogent, logical defense.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2012 3:37 pm 
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Pretty funny, but who really cares? Doubt it will affect anyone here in the least. As Employee always loves to say, isn't there more important things to be worried about?


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2012 5:10 pm 
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If you're disabled, HOW THE FUCK ARE YOU PLAYING GOLF???

Plus, can we claim bias if they're allowed to break the 90 degree rule?


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2012 6:21 pm 
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In what possible instance is a mini-horse a more appropriate helper animal than a well trained, well bred dog?

So I guess I'm going to pay more for a hotel room now because of this?


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2012 7:39 pm 
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HomeSkillet wrote:
In what possible instance is a mini-horse a more appropriate helper animal than a well trained, well bred dog?


Certain religions (i.e. Islam) believe that dogs are unclean.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2012 7:39 pm 
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naturalborn103 wrote:
Pretty funny, but who really cares?


How about the people who own and operate the affected establishments?

C'mon, Natty Ice. You work out, right? Tell me how it is not batshit lunacy that every gym must have "at least one of each type of exercise machine for use by a person in a wheelchair."


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2012 8:55 pm 
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It is crazy, comedy, and also very stupid, but I don't think it will personally affect any of us. I don't really get the one type of each exercise machine for use by person in a wheel chair. Have fun with that squat rack.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2012 10:55 pm 
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Combo7 wrote:
naturalborn103 wrote:
Pretty funny, but who really cares?


How about the people who own and operate the affected establishments?


This is the GOP equivalent of a white liberal shrieking "WELL YOU WOULD CARE IF YOU WERE BLACK!!!"

Take a break from being such a whiny blowhard bitchy Ricky Schroeder every once in awhile. You literally have nothing to be resentful about.

Combo7 wrote:
C'mon, Natty Ice. You work out, right? Tell me how it is not batshit lunacy that every gym must have "at least one of each type of exercise machine for use by a person in a wheelchair."


Pro-tip: when you quote things you should actually quote them. Read it with a lower heart rate and you'll see your mistake.

As for "defending" it, I'd have to read it and know more about it to decide if I'd defend it or not. Is that community moving to miniature guide horses for the reasons stated, or is it just zany? If the reasons are true it seems pragmatic, more cost effective and reasonable, but I've never seen one before so it sounds nuts. Again though, don't keep up on that and literally have no idea. Of course it was W. who championed these new ADA standards and signed them into law, but that gets in the way of your argument, so whatever.

Our only difference is that I'm not pretending to care in order to get my symbolic resentment jolly off.

True story: I wouldn't defend it or champion it cuz I don't really know about it and ultimately I don't really give a shit. Truer story: beyond whatever symbolic thing it represents for you I honestly don't believe that you even remotely give a shit either.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2012 11:50 pm 
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PopeyeJones wrote:
Combo7 wrote:
naturalborn103 wrote:
Pretty funny, but who really cares?


How about the people who own and operate the affected establishments?


This is the GOP equivalent of a white liberal shrieking "WELL YOU WOULD CARE IF YOU WERE BLACK!!!"

Take a break from being such a whiny blowhard bitchy Ricky Schroeder every once in awhile. You literally have nothing to be resentful about.


Surely the world would be a better place if we all just didn't give a fuck about things that don't directly affect us. You're an inspiration to us all, professor.

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Combo7 wrote:
C'mon, Natty Ice. You work out, right? Tell me how it is not batshit lunacy that every gym must have "at least one of each type of exercise machine for use by a person in a wheelchair."


Pro-tip: when you quote things you should actually quote them. Read it with a lower heart rate and you'll see your mistake.


It's an irrelevant distinction.

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As for "defending" it, I'd have to read it and know more about it to decide if I'd defend it or not. Is that community moving to miniature guide horses for the reasons stated, or is it just zany? If the reasons are true it seems pragmatic, more cost effective and reasonable, but I've never seen one before so it sounds nuts. Again though, don't keep up on that and literally have no idea. Of course it was W. who championed these new ADA standards and signed them into law, but that gets in the way of your argument, so whatever.


And what do you presume my argument to be, exactly?

Quote:
True story: I wouldn't defend it or champion it cuz I don't really know about it and ultimately I don't really give a shit. Truer story: beyond whatever symbolic thing it represents for you I honestly don't believe that you even remotely give a shit either.


If I didn't give a shit I wouldn't have started a thread, and if they start fucking with my local miniature golf course I will be righteously pissed.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2012 12:17 am 
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I also find it funny that you came in here and spouted off several paragraphs just to say "I don't care about this."

Instead of just admitting that the regulations are ridiculous (or, better yet, just sitting this one out entirely) you felt compelled to attack me for actually caring. I have never encountered a person online who was so enamored with the sound of his own voice.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2012 12:47 am 
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Combo7 wrote:
PopeyeJones wrote:
Combo7 wrote:
C'mon, Natty Ice. You work out, right? Tell me how it is not batshit lunacy that every gym must have "at least one of each type of exercise machine for use by a person in a wheelchair."


Pro-tip: when you quote things you should actually quote them. Read it with a lower heart rate and you'll see your mistake.


It's an irrelevant distinction.



The difference between having one of each machine be specially constructed for use by someone in a wheelchair versus one of each machine just being positioned with wide enough birth to be rolled up to is irrelevant to you? WTF?

You are doing a bang up job of showing how much you care about this. Seriously. You care soooo much you can't be bothered with facts or details, and when they're pointed out to you, they're irrelevant. I'm fully convinced now of how much you actually care. LOL.

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Surely the world would be a better place if we all just didn't give a fuck about things that don't directly affect us. You're an inspiration to us all, professor.


This is overblown, grandiose nonsense and not worth responding to substantively. Sorry.

Combo7 wrote:
And what do you presume my argument to be, exactly?


That it's indefensible. You made it obvious with the thread title.

Combo7 wrote:
If I didn't give a shit I wouldn't have started a thread, and if they start fucking with my local miniature golf course I will be righteously pissed.


Ooh, righteously pissed. You're talking in hypotheticals though, because you don't actually even know if half the holes on your local mini-golf course start on a flat surface that's four feet by five feet. TBH, this sounds pretty fucking typical of the start of every hole for every mini-golf course I've been to. That shit is on a flat surface so your ball doesn't roll off it. It's on a big fucking square or rectangular matt. Sounds like pretty standard fare for well over 50% of the holes I've been on at any mini-golf course.

In any case, moreso, this is why I said "You literally have nothing to be resentful about." You're having fucking conniptions about your own uninvestigated hypotheticals about fucking with your local mini-golf course, bro? That's the shit that really bursts your bubble? If so you are further proving yourself as the most silver-spooned crossbred Ricky Schroeder/Billy Madison bitch-child in the history of this board. Get over it.

Real talk: check in with us in a couple months about the horrors this has caused at your local mini-golf course. Keep us updated, cuz shit is PRESSING AS FUCK.

Combo7 wrote:
I also find it funny that you came in here and spouted off several paragraphs just to say "I don't care about this."


Nah. Saying I don't much care about this took half a sentence. I 1) took the time to explain precisely why I didn't have much of a position on this, 2) took the time to correct you on your obvious and simple misreading of this thing you care so deeply about, and 3) took it upon myself to opine that you don't really give a turd about this beyond what you think it might symbolically represent to you. If it was painful for you, don't read my posts. They're not special. No harm, no foul.

Combo7 wrote:
Instead of just admitting that the regulations are ridiculous (or, better yet, just sitting this one out entirely) you felt compelled to attack me for actually caring. I have never encountered a person online who was so enamored with the sound of his own voice.


I didn't attack you for actually caring. I attacked you for not bothering to even get straight the details of what you're claiming to so deeply care about. I called you full of shit and explained my position. Calm down, dude.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2012 5:09 am 
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Republican boldly fights to ban tiny horses from restaurants

A radical new injustice ג€” tiny horses helping disabled people ג€” is sweeping the nation thanks to the Obama administration, but the forces of evil may have finally met their match in Rep. Jason Chaffetz (R-UT), who wants to amend the Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA) to ban the creatures from restaurants.


He announced the proposal in response to the Obama administration altering the ADA to make an exception for specially trained miniature horses that work in the place of service dogs to help disabled people. The law specifically excludes horses from the definition of ג€œservice animal,ג€ however, noting that there are some situations ג€œwhere using a horse would not be appropriate.ג€ Like in a restaurant.

Nevertheless, Chaffetz bravely soldiers on.


Appearing on MSNBC on Thursday, Chaffetz explained that his amendment would let restaurants ban horses without fear of a lawsuit. ג€œThink about airplanes,ג€ he said. ג€œLook, even the Miniature Horse Associationג€¦ has come out and said, ג€˜Look, you canג€™t potty train, for instance, a horse to the same degree you can a canine.ג€™ And so it just seems like the federal government, the Department of Justice, is going overboard in issuing a rule.ג€

The amendment, he explained in an editorial published last month, would theoretically save businesses money and frustration, but it is not clear how many such lawsuits have been filed.

Still, Chaffetz cites ג€œestimatesג€ by the conservative business advocacy group Competitive Enterprise Institute ג€” an organization with a history of denying climate science and the harms of tobacco ג€” which claims that the sum total of all government regulations ג€œcost the economy $1.75 trillion in 2008.ג€

ג€œThatג€™s Trillion with a T,ג€ he wrote. ג€œIf you were to spend $1 million a day every day, it would take you nearly 3,000 years just to get to $1 trillion. Thatג€™s a massive drag on the US economy.ג€

For a man to scale a mountain, he must first start his climb somewhere. For Chaffetz, that somewhere is apparently tiny horses.

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2012/06/22/r ... staurants/


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2012 9:30 am 
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Popeye, I do have issue with this as it applies to actual golf courses.

I actually have an overall problem with this to an extent. Are car manufacturers going to have to start making cars to accomodate handicapped individuals? I mean I can understand making your establishment accessible to handicapped individuals, but this seems excessive.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2012 10:22 am 
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Cash Rulz wrote:
Popeye, I do have issue with this as it applies to actual golf courses.


I can understand thinking the changes -- if any -- are drastic, if you've only read the write-up from an openly partisan news source that uses symbolic stuff like this as click-bait. Seriously, not attacking you, it's all we were linked to.

Instead of having Combo act as the shrieking messiah for all businesses and their interests, let's go to the source. Let's find the people who would have the biggest problem with this. That's the Golf Course Superintedents Association of America (20K members, since 1926). If anyone would have a problem, it would be them. Luckily, they've weighed in on this, because, wait for it, they helped craft the legislation. I think when you read their summary with all the details (it's level-headed information based, not resentment oriented click-bait based) you might feel a little better.

http://www.gcsaa.org/_common/templates/ ... gType=1033

Quote:
The Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA) requires reasonable modifications to golf course policies, practices or procedures to serve people with disabilities (as defined by the law) on an equal basis with the rest of the general public. A reasonable modification is one that does not present an undue burden to the golf course or alter the fundamental nature of the game. GCSAA has been active in working with golfers, lawmakers and regulators to address ADA issues. On Sept. 15, 2010, the U.S. Department of Justice (DOJ) released final rules to update its ADA regulations and implement new accessibility standards for golf courses and other recreational facilities. The rules will impact municipal and commercial entities and codify the architectural guidelines for barrier removal. This will impact future golf course development and renovations to existing facilities. Alterations to existing golf courses include the redesign of teeing grounds and greens. Mowing and other general maintenance activities are not considered an alteration. After March 15, 2012, all new golf facilities must be accessible in accordance with the golf course accessibility guidelines and existing courses must remove barriers when it is ג€œreadily achievableג€ over time (easy to accomplish without much difficulty or expense). The golf course accessibility standards cover: accessible routes and/or alternative golf car passages; teeing grounds; putting greens; weather shelters; and driving ranges. On July 26, 2010, DOJ issued an Advanced Notice of Proposed Rulemaking (ANPRM) specific to accessible golf cars. DOJ is considering issuing regulations requiring golf courses that provide golf cars, when replacing or acquiring additional standard golf cars, to provide accessible golf cars for use by individuals with disabilities.

GCSAA position statement

As golf course management professionals, the members of GCSAA will work to make golf accessible to all persons by promoting policies and practices that consider the needs and safety of all golfers, promote the growth and vitality of the game and maintain the agronomic integrity of the golf course. The purchase of single rider golf cars should be the decision of each individual golf facility considering multiple factors including customer service considerations, safety of the devices, market demand and economic impact to the facility. Every golf facility in the U.S. has a stake in growing the game of golf. The growth of the game is dependent upon new golfers of all abilities coming into the game.

GCSAA activity

GCSAA is a founding member of the National Alliance for Accessible Golf. The mission of the Alliance is to increase participation of people with disabilities in the game of golf. GCSAA serves on the Alliance board of directors.

In May 2005, GCSAA submitted comments to the DOJ which began the process of adopting revised ADA standards consistent with Parts II and III of the revised guidelines implementing the Americans with Disabilities Act of 1990 (ADA) and the Architectural Barriers Act of 1968, published by the Access Board on July 23, 2004, at 69 FR 44083. The ANPRM addressed the issue of whether single rider golf cars should be required at all golf facilities in the U.S.


In July 2007, the Alliance hosted its first annual Accessible Golf Pro-Am at the Toledo (Ohio) Country Club. The tournament raised funds for accessible golf programs throughout the country while increasing awareness in the work of the Alliance.

In August 2008, GCSAA submitted comments to the DOJ on the proposed rulemaking issued by the agency on June 17, 2008, to adopt revised ADA Standards consistent with the 2004 ADAAG including the guidelines for recreation facilities. In the NPRM, the DOJ decided not to propose new regulations specific to accessible golf cars.


The seminar ג€œMaking Your Golf Course ADA Accessibleג€ was held at the 2009 GCSAA Education Conference.

The government relations session ג€œADA Accessibility Guidelines and NPDES Pesticide General Permits: Prepare Your Course for Complianceג€ was held at the 2011 GCSAA Education Conference.

In January 2011, GCSAA submitted comments to the DOJ on the ANPRM related to ג€œNondiscrimination on the Basis of Disability by State and Local Governments and Places of Public Accommodation; Equipment and Furnitureג€. GCSAA also provided public testimony in January 2011 on the ANPRM at a DOJ public listening session in San Francisco.

In September 2011, GCSAA offered a free webcast to its members on the new ADA accessibility guidelines for golf courses. The featured speaker was Peggy Greenwell, U.S. Access Board Accessibility Specialist.



So, basically, golf courses have been on board with this and helping to craft the legislation all along. The DOJ was thinking about having them have to get one handicap accessible golf cart when one of their golf carts had to be replaced for other reasons, and they filed a position paper saying they didn't want to have to do that. The DOJ said "okay" and struck out that part of the legislation. Everyone is happy. While Combo claims to care (and care deeply), he doesn't actually care enough to look into these things he cares about. He's happy to speak for businesses, but can't be troubled with actually taking the ten minutes to investigate what businesses actually think. It might get in the way of his bloviating.



Cash Rulz wrote:
I actually have an overall problem with this to an extent. Are car manufacturers going to have to start making cars to accomodate handicapped individuals? I mean I can understand making your establishment accessible to handicapped individuals, but this seems excessive.


Your concern is with a hypothetical that you yourself made up out of thin air. Are car manufacturers going to have to start making cars to accomodate handicapped individuals? No. There is absolutely no legislation on this. It's completely unrelated to the Americans with Disabilities Act signed into law by George Bush in 1990, the Amendment to the American With Disabilities Act strengthening regulations as signed into law by George W. Bush in 2008, or the implementation of these regulations by the DOJ across all four presidencies since 1990 (two Republican, two Democrat). Honestly, people have been generally mums the word about the ADA for 20 years now. Nobody had rat to say when W. championed and signed through more stringent guidelines. Combo has to link to a partisan news source, because a non-partisan news source would make mention that businesses helped craft the legislation and are on board with them. If that were included, how could Combo take it upon himself to speak for them?

I honestly think a healthy portion of the wildly and completely ahistorical concern about this can be summed up in four words: "Obama is a Communist." Another healthy portion can be summed up in two words: "Election season." The remaining bits take another four words: "Garden variety partisan ignorance" (which happens on both sides, obviously). Just my take, of course.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2012 11:49 am 
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I don't think that participation correlates to being on board. They may be involved in the process because obviously the DOJ said its going to happen so therefore, they feel like "well since we have to do it let's at least have a hand in shaping the law".

Golf courses have always been "accessible" to people with disabilities in general. I could care less about building ramps for the club house or to the tee box. However, I do have an issue with someone riding their wheelchair on the green or altering the lay of it.

I bring up the hypothetical "car" analogy to say that I feel that if this legislation effects gameplay then there is no telling where it could go. That's a huge stretch, but then again, I never thought NYC would ban cigarettes in bars so I don't put anything past a vocal minority.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2012 11:59 am 
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Cash Rulz wrote:
I don't think that participation correlates to being on board. They may be involved in the process because obviously the DOJ said its going to happen so therefore, they feel like "well since we have to do it let's at least have a hand in shaping the law".

Golf courses have always been "accessible" to people with disabilities in general I could care less about building ramps for the club house or to the tee box. However, I do have an issue with someone riding their wheelchair on the green or altering the lay of it.


Yeah, which is why I'm guessing they've been mums-the-word on that to begin with. They were concerned with having to replace a golf cart with a handi one when one crapped out, and they're concern was taken into consideration and that part of the guidelines was taken out.

That they've 1) been working with the feds on this back into W.'s administration and 2) don't have any complaints 3) while basically championing the thing tells us everything we need to know, IMO. If they thought it was a problem I don't think they'd be bragging about how involved they've been on their webpage.

Cash Rulz wrote:
I bring up the hypothetical "car" analogy to say that I feel that if this legislation effects gameplay then there is no telling where it could go. That's a huge stretch, but then again, I never thought NYC would ban cigarettes in bars so I don't put anything past a vocal minority.


It's a hypothetical that it would affect gameplay (golf courses themselves disagree), and a slippery slope argument to cars. I hear what you're saying, I just don't think it holds water.

As for NYC, it was a big deal at the time for sure, but 15 years out, it seems pretty reasonable, IMO. It's not unlike handicap accessible sidewalks. I'd guess that there were people up in arms about the cost associated with making sidewalks handicap accessible. I remember watching folks in wheelchairs rolling down the side of the street when I was a kid. In retrospect it was kinda crazy (particularly when they were between parked cars and in the actual lane). That happened, and the world kept spinning. Everything ended up being okay. In retrospect, shoving wheelchair bound folks out into the streets because you didn't want to fix the end of sidewalks seems pretty remarkably d!ckish, IMO.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2012 12:08 pm 
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LOL @ acting like owners of mini-golf courses/establishments were voluntary, gleeful participants in drafting this utterly idiotic legislation.

Like every group of small business owners: they want to avoid being sued. I've been sued twice. It is expensive as FUCK.

I mean, I don't know how so many people in wheelchairs who patronized mini-golf courses have survived so long.

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Employee wrote:
LOL @ acting like owners of mini-golf courses/establishments were voluntary, gleeful participants in drafting this utterly idiotic legislation.

Like every group of small business owners: they want to avoid being sued. I've been sued twice. It is expensive as FUCK.

I mean, I don't know how so many people in wheelchairs who patronized mini-golf courses have survived so long.


:lol:

Running a business is an abstraction to most people. They genuinely don't get how costly and time-consuming shit like this is. Ironically, they're more often than not the ones who bitch the loudest about how expensive everything is.


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Employee wrote:
LOL @ acting like owners of mini-golf courses/establishments were voluntary, gleeful participants in drafting this utterly idiotic legislation.


Try to keep up. We're talking regular golf courses. Combo is working himself into a hypthetical tizzy over his local mini-golf course (where he spends a lot of time while not working I guess, I dunno).

In any case, as you know business groups create associations to promote themselves and to protect their own interests. Here we have a business group that has been working with the fed for awhile now, were appeased on their one quibble point, and are championing the legislation and their involvement in it on their website. There is LITERALLY nothing to see here. We've moved from starting with a partisan blog, to having actual information for the party that would be most opposed (they're not, they're the opposite), to just bullshitting about it and digging heels in. TBH I've kind of said everything I have to say on it. The facts speak for themselves.

Your next move is to cherry pick another part of the legislation and wave your arms about the impending doomsday it will cause until I get annoyed enough to go do your research for you again, at which point you'll say it doesn't matter anyway before hopping to the next lilypad of woefully uninformed indignation. I get how the game is played. I'm just gonna stop at this point because the point has already been made, and playing round robin on your indignation will continue to be as effective as it has been (meaning not all).

Have at it.


Last edited by PopeyeJones on Thu Jun 28, 2012 12:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2012 12:34 pm 
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Seiko Flossberg wrote:
Running a business is an abstraction to most people. They genuinely don't get how costly and time-consuming shit like this is. Ironically, they're more often than not the ones who bitch the loudest about how expensive everything is.


Which is why businesses create associations to protect their interests, which work with regulators to make sure regulations aren't cost-prohibitive, which they say multiple times on their own website that these regulations specifically aren't.


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PopeyeJones wrote:
Seiko Flossberg wrote:
Running a business is an abstraction to most people. They genuinely don't get how costly and time-consuming shit like this is. Ironically, they're more often than not the ones who bitch the loudest about how expensive everything is.


Which is why businesses create associations to protect their interests, which work with regulators to make sure regulations aren't cost-prohibitive, which they say multiple times on their own website that these regulations specifically aren't.


Looks good on paper, not so much in reality.


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Seiko Flossberg wrote:
PopeyeJones wrote:
Seiko Flossberg wrote:
Running a business is an abstraction to most people. They genuinely don't get how costly and time-consuming shit like this is. Ironically, they're more often than not the ones who bitch the loudest about how expensive everything is.


Which is why businesses create associations to protect their interests, which work with regulators to make sure regulations aren't cost-prohibitive, which they say multiple times on their own website that these regulations specifically aren't.


Looks good on paper, not so much in reality.


Is "reality" in this post anything more than a high falutin' way to say "in my uninformed opinion which I feel comfortable cutting-and-pasting onto any issue for which I don't know the specifics of", or is does it actually mean reality?

Put another way, if you actually mean real life reality, can you link us to it?

Not to put too fine a point on it, but this reads like you believe that any and all governmental regulation is bad, and that just because the business association that would be most affected has been crafting the legislation, helping to define it and is now championing it, you will not be deterred off your one-size-fits-all perch.

Seriously though, correct me if I'm wrong.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2012 1:28 pm 
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PopeyeJones wrote:
Seiko Flossberg wrote:
Running a business is an abstraction to most people. They genuinely don't get how costly and time-consuming shit like this is. Ironically, they're more often than not the ones who bitch the loudest about how expensive everything is.


Which is why businesses create associations to protect their interests, which work with regulators to make sure regulations aren't cost-prohibitive, which they say multiple times on their own website that these regulations specifically aren't.


Extortion by any other name is still extortion. I understand you are entirely disconnected with the reality of owing and operating one or multiple businesses, but you can't possibly be as clueless as you're making yourself out to be. The simple fact that you think these regulations are not expensive or burdensome to owners is laughable on its face. And of course they are going to put the rosiest face on the plate of shit they've been dealt. Do you want your organization put on blast because you're opposing something that is being presented as beneficial to the disabled (even though it will not help or improve the quality of life for anyone who is disabled)?

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who is this guy, Mel Gibson?


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2012 1:31 pm 
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PopeyeJones wrote:
Employee wrote:
LOL @ acting like owners of mini-golf courses/establishments were voluntary, gleeful participants in drafting this utterly idiotic legislation.


Try to keep up. We're talking regular golf courses. Combo is working himself into a hypthetical tizzy over his local mini-golf course (where he spends a lot of time while not working I guess, I dunno).

In any case, as you know business groups create associations to promote themselves and to protect their own interests. Here we have a business group that has been working with the fed for awhile now, were appeased on their one quibble point, and are championing the legislation and their involvement in it on their website. There is LITERALLY nothing to see here. We've moved from starting with a partisan blog, to having actual information for the party that would be most opposed (they're not, they're the opposite), to just bullshitting about it and digging heels in. TBH I've kind of said everything I have to say on it. The facts speak for themselves.

Your next move is to cherry pick another part of the legislation and wave your arms about the impending doomsday it will cause until I get annoyed enough to go do your research for you again, at which point you'll say it doesn't matter anyway before hopping to the next lilypad of woefully uninformed indignation. I get how the game is played. I'm just gonna stop at this point because the point has already been made, and playing round robin on your indignation will continue to be as effective as it has been (meaning not all).

Have at it.


You're a work-a-day faggot. You sit behind a desk and judge undergrads all day long. When I want advice on business I'll read the Wall Street Journal; when I want to know the preferred method of cock inhalation in the northeastern part of our fine country I'll read your posts.

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Mindbender wrote:
who is this guy, Mel Gibson?


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2012 1:36 pm 
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PopeyeJones wrote:
Seiko Flossberg wrote:
PopeyeJones wrote:
Seiko Flossberg wrote:
Running a business is an abstraction to most people. They genuinely don't get how costly and time-consuming shit like this is. Ironically, they're more often than not the ones who bitch the loudest about how expensive everything is.


Which is why businesses create associations to protect their interests, which work with regulators to make sure regulations aren't cost-prohibitive, which they say multiple times on their own website that these regulations specifically aren't.


Looks good on paper, not so much in reality.


Is "reality" in this post anything more than a high falutin' way to say "in my uninformed opinion which I feel comfortable cutting-and-pasting onto any issue for which I don't know the specifics of", or is does it actually mean reality?

Put another way, if you actually mean real life reality, can you link us to it?

Not to put too fine a point on it, but this reads like you believe that any and all governmental regulation is bad, and that just because the business association that would be most affected has been crafting the legislation, helping to define it and is now championing it, you will not be deterred off your one-size-fits-all perch.

Seriously though, correct me if I'm wrong.


The money and time I've dedicated to compliance in the past twelve years would make someone like you drink Drano.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2012 1:42 pm 
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PopeyeJones wrote:
Not to put too fine a point on it, but this reads like you believe that any and all governmental regulation is bad


In general it is because the regulations are drafted and enforced by people like you.

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Mindbender wrote:
who is this guy, Mel Gibson?


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2012 3:37 pm 
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PopeyeJones wrote:
Combo7 wrote:
PopeyeJones wrote:
Combo7 wrote:
C'mon, Natty Ice. You work out, right? Tell me how it is not batshit lunacy that every gym must have "at least one of each type of exercise machine for use by a person in a wheelchair."


Pro-tip: when you quote things you should actually quote them. Read it with a lower heart rate and you'll see your mistake.


It's an irrelevant distinction.


The difference between having one of each machine be specially constructed for use by someone in a wheelchair versus one of each machine just being positioned with wide enough birth to be rolled up to is irrelevant to you? WTF?


I'm guessing you've never set foot in a gym. They typically try to cram as many machines into a limited space as can fit safely. Some gyms would have to get rid of equipment entirely in order to accommodate this hypothetical wheelchair-bound bodybuilder.

PopeyeJones wrote:
Combo7 wrote:
And what do you presume my argument to be, exactly?


That it's indefensible. You made it obvious with the thread title.


And what does that have to do with whether it was a Republican or Democrat who signed it into law? Try to keep your eye on the ball, professor.

PopeyeJones wrote:
You're talking in hypotheticals though, because you don't actually even know if half the holes on your local mini-golf course start on a flat surface that's four feet by five feet.


Who the fuck are you (aside from an insufferable know-it-all windbag) to presume to know what I know?

The mini-golf course in question is built entirely on a steep hill (front nine at the base, back nine snaking up the hill and back down the other side).

PopeyeJones wrote:
Combo is working himself into a hypthetical tizzy over his local mini-golf course (where he spends a lot of time while not working I guess, I dunno).


LOL, aren't you a teacher?? I've worked more than forty hours per week since I graduated.


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LOL. So on this golf course shit are any of you actually going to bring anything informational or non cut-and-paste to the table, or it's just gonna be pages and pages of your rhetorical stump speech ideological leanings and your feelings?

Shit is pathetic. :arrow:

:megaman:


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2012 4:49 pm 
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PopeyeJones wrote:
LOL. So on this golf course shit are any of you actually going to bring anything informational or non cut-and-paste to the table, or it's just gonna be pages and pages of your rhetorical stump speech ideological leanings and your feelings?

Shit is pathetic. :arrow:

:megaman:


What facts are you bringing, faggot? Your emotions and instincts? Those aren't facts.

That's called "Having Your Period."

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who is this guy, Mel Gibson?


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